We need to be able to adjust the pitch and transpose by semitones and fine adjustments in samples and when blending tracks. Coming initially from ableton I preferred to mix multiple tracks transposing them to the same key, then upon the build right before the drop either do an ascending/descending pitch slide and/or bend it right at the break to land in the original key on the drop. One of the many creative possibilities of adding this feature. I know you guys can't release information on when new features will be available but I would like to know if you guys are working on it or ever plan to have this feature in some sense.? Quote: The software would need key detection first Im not exactly sure what you mean.?If you mean they should have this too, I agree completely!

If you are saying it is not possible to do without knowing what key it is already in, that is not true. It is completely plausible to have key change/transposition ability without recognizing what key it is in. Basically a key change ability would mean the ability to transpose a track in semitones up or down, and it is not necessary for a software to recognize what key it is already in to be able to carry out this operation. Quote: Oops, too late, already bought Mixed in Key. Worth the $58 dollars to analyze my entire library (although it took 3 straight days to analyze my 20,000 songs).

It would be awesome to have it from this point forward though, so. +1 I'll be honest and say I've had amazing results from this key analysing software that trumps MIK. However, the request is to change or 'transpose' the key live with a MIDI mapped knob (like in Traktor) so we can manually shift the key up and down semitones. Hopefully they will add it at some point. Quote: Oops, too late, already bought Mixed in Key. Worth the $58 dollars to analyze my entire library (although it took 3 straight days to analyze my 20,000 songs). It would be awesome to have it from this point forward though, so.

+1 I'll be honest and say I've had amazing results from this key analysing software that trumps MIK. However, the request is to change or 'transpose' the key live with a MIDI mapped knob (like in Traktor) so we can manually shift the key up and down semitones. Hopefully they will add it at some point. Quote: IMPOSSIBLE!!??!!

No Key adjust / change ability, and no possibility in Searto Dj 1.6.2 too??? Ey, the year is 2014! For me, making minimal progressive and Undaground psy tranze. It´s one of the most important features, please tell me i´m wrong and there is a solution for my PIONEER DDJ-SR with SERATO DJ 1.6.2. Buying PITCH n TIME Plugin woudn´t solve the problem, or??? PEAZE Of course it's possible! They have the technology.

Virtual DJ Software, MP3 and. VirtualDJ Forum VirtualDJ Plugins. 2 pcs and link vdj to freestyler using this new update to the SBDJ S2L Plugin. I've been experimenting recently using C6.5 to make DJ-style mixes. I'm aware that other software is designed more specifically for this purpose but I enjoy using cubase and I wanted to see what kind of results I could get. Using music I see as innovative and futuristic, I made a set that manipulates.

See Picth'N'Time: It's 'just' a matter of priorities - a business decision for Serato if/when they want to do it. The more people asking for it increases the odds it will come soon. Quote: IMPOSSIBLE!!??!! No Key adjust / change ability, and no possibility in Searto Dj 1.6.2 too???

Ey, the year is 2014! For me, making minimal progressive and Undaground psy tranze. It´s one of the most important features, please tell me i´m wrong and there is a solution for my PIONEER DDJ-SR with SERATO DJ 1.6.2. Buying PITCH n TIME Plugin woudn´t solve the problem, or??? PEAZE Of course it's possible! They have the technology.

See Picth'N'Time: It's 'just' a matter of priorities - a business decision for Serato if/when they want to do it. The more people asking for it increases the odds it will come soon. Thank you, it was clear wait, wait, yes or no, I'm really bored. So it´s on you serato-dj users out there, come on, go on, ask, and ask. Ask them a hole in their SERATOric Abdom-ina;).

Quote: It's 'just' a matter of priorities - a business decision for Serato if/when they want to do it. The more people asking for it increases the odds it will come soon. We always have a lot going on here, but this feature get its time to shine eventually, because we have scheduled it into our roadmap. Unfortunately I just can't reveal when that is exactly, because there is always a possibility that its priority could change. Don't stop bumping this thread and talking about it though - I encourage any discussion about exactly what you want out of this feature, how you imagine the interface would be and what the interactions are.

That definitely sounds like a suitable mapping to me. In terms of mapping to existing controllers, it always going to be case by case. I notice Numark and Denon typically put pitch nudge buttons, but they are not so common on Pioneer, Vestax and some other controllers. We can probably find a space for the mapping though - but in terms of offering to people without controllers, we will also have to provide a way to do it via the GUI.

What would this look like? What increments would you expect it to move in? Guess I wouldnt use it THAT much.

Lt least from the times Ive spun om mixers/controllers that have pitch shift, I still use the filter more than the shifter. It wouldnt be a nightmare for myself as Im not that FX heavy. Mostly echo, delay, reverb and filter.

For others, I can see why they would want it accessable all the time. Personally, Im all about the 'less is more'. There is a fine line between sleeknees & bloated gui's IMO. I also think that if pitchshift is to become a standard for all software/controllers, it should have some sort of continuity across controller brands/setups. Quote: So you would load a key change effect in one of the DJ-FX slots?

I would think that you would want this accessible always, if you used it. Absolutely not.

This should be dedicated functionality, mappable and available in the GUI. There are some circumstances where I'd need to jump the pitch a semitone in the middle of a loop. I'll be glad to point you to a set of mine on Soundcloud (made with Torq) that exemplifies the use cases that just aren't possible with Serato today. To Martin C, as a software product manager I know you can't commit to a delivery date, but THANK YOU for taking the time to respond.

I urge you to keep us in the loop (ha ha) as things progress. I am personally glad to provide usabiltiy feedback and/or user story definition. Regarding the math, here are some notes I found long ago that might be helpful: Changing the pitch up an octave is doubling the pitch, and an octave is split into 12 even semitones. Therefore each semitone up is a 12th root of 2 = 1.59295. Each semitone down is 1 over that = 1 / 1.59295 = 0.81694 So you'll need to bust out your calculator and use these: n semitones up = ( 1.59295 ) ^ n x 100 n semitones down = ( 0.81694 ) ^ n x 100 Some examples (of how pitch relates to speed): 1 semitone up = 1.59295 x 100 = 105.95% 1 semitone down = 0.81694 x 100 = 94.39% 2 semitones up = ( 1.59295 ) ^ 2 x 100 = 112.25% 3 semitones up = ( 1.59295 ) ^ 3 x 100 = 118.92% 12 semitones up = ( 1.59295 ) ^ 12 x 100 = 200% 12 semitones down = ( 0.81694 ) ^ 12 x 100 = 50% Hope this helps! Regarding interface, I can see it implemented as a knob and two button combo in each individual deck, with zero position being the knob in the middle position.

Rotating the knob would increment it by 'clicks' up or down semitones, and the two buttons would do the same thing, just in single directions. I would REALLY want to see pitch shift in Serato. This is one of the major things that it is missing versus Traktor, Ableton, Torq, VirtualDJ, etc. It sets an effective limit on what you can do spontaneously in a mix.

While you can work around the missing pitch shift by making edits before your set, Traktor and everyone else just lets you incorporate into your set on the fly. I don't know too well the philosophy behind SDJ, to be honest it still kind of confuses me, but pitch lock would raise its ability to compete with everyone else quite a bit. For ITCH and SSL, I can maybe understand a bit more as I feel they emphasize themselves as pure, music playing interfaces versus a creation/destruction interface.

For SDJ though, I think it could definitely use pitch shift. Quote: Regarding interface, I can see it implemented as a knob and two button combo in each individual deck, with zero position being the knob in the middle position. Rotating the knob would increment it by 'clicks' up or down semitones, and the two buttons would do the same thing, just in single directions I agree with these suggestions. I would be keen to hear the examples of soundcloud. Where could I find them? So for you guys who have chipped into this discussion and use the feature in other software: Is the main reason usually for 'an effect'?

Or is this useful for key mixing e.g you know how many semitones to move through in order to match two songs? Hey Martin C, Please take a look at the way M-Audio Torq implemented it. Each deck has an up and down button that will raise/lower the pitch by one semitone per press (independently of BMP). This is _not_ for effect, and is absolutely for melodic mixing of two otherwise-incompatible songs (which is why it's _so_ important to have pitch/key adjustment completely divorced from BPM adjustment). Regarding some sets that demonstrate what isn't possible in Serato today, I have two for you to check out. First, I have a video of Torq where I employed key change and looping. Jump to about 18 minutes in and check out the 'KEY' section below each deck (just below each fader).

See how each song has been adjusted to the _same_ key (some up, some down), and the Lady Gaga is looped through like 3 songs playing at once (because they're all in the same key (or, in one case, a 5th of the song's key (making it compatible))). Note that the ATB song was transposed like 4 keys to maintain compatibility. You couldn't make this set in Serato.:( For a more aesthetically appealing set that employs the same techniques, check out I am also a product manager; I'll be glad to send you some user stories.

Let me know if you want my contact info. Quote: Regarding interface, I can see it implemented as a knob and two button combo in each individual deck, with zero position being the knob in the middle position.[/quote[ Personally, I can see the benefits of both. I'm used to (and prefer) buttons, so it's super easy to step at exactly the right moment. Check out at 11 minutes 24 seconds to see what I mean, where it reloops and I jump the pitch by +1 to create a dramatic effect (and prep for the next song, in a higher key). The downside to buttons vs. Knob approach is that if you need to adjust within a semitone you can't do it with a button.

However, with a knob you lose the precision to make a just-in-time (in-loop) jump. Quote: The downside to buttons vs. Knob approach is that if you need to adjust within a semitone you can't do it with a button. However, with a knob you lose the precision to make a just-in-time (in-loop) jump. How often do you need to adjust within a semitone? So it seems like there could be three functions in order to achieve all use cases for key mixing: 1.

+/- buttons to move up and down one semitone 2. A notched knob/encoder which moves in semitone increments 3.

A fine tune knob/encoder which moves within a semitone I have to ask, and I hope this doesn't sound silly to you, but if there was just a 'key sync' button where it automatically made the appropriate adjustments to your track to get in the correct key, would you use that instead? Seems like it would save you having to make manual adjustments, for people who aren't super good at knowing the correct adjustments to make, its automatic for them?

Quote: if there was just a 'key sync' button where it automatically made the appropriate adjustments to your track to get in the correct key, would you use that instead? Maybe, just like i use the BPM sync button on occasion, but doing it this way has a ton of disadvantages: 1. You have to do the key analysis yourself (within Serato) -- a whole giant ball of new functionality you as a company have to maintain, and a lot of pre-setup end users have to do (like we do with beat grids now). It's not always a 1:1 match.

In many cases, a melodic mix can work on 5ths (see that Lady Gaga part of People Eyes, where the Gaga song is in a 5th key of the root song) or thirds or other harmonic intervals. I strongly recommend keeping Serato key agnostic, providing the ability to adjust the pitch by semitones (easy math) without you [serato] having to do the extra work of key detection (which your suggestion would require). It's nice-to-have functionality for the novice user, but in the end they can go buy Mixed in Key for $50 if necessary (and I also recommend). Quote: So it seems like there could be three functions in order to achieve all use cases for key mixing: 1. +/- buttons to move up and down one semitone 2.

A notched knob/encoder which moves in semitone increments 3. A fine tune knob/encoder which moves within a semitone In my opinion, i'd go for #1 (which negates the need for #2). For #3, i'd offer a pitch knob effect (like hardline Pioneer DJMs do) to allow fine-grained adjustment of pitch.

You don't often find out-of-tune songs (at least I don't), so the #3 use case is much less important to me. Thanks for staying engaged!:) /b. Quote: I strongly recommend keeping Serato key agnostic, providing the ability to adjust the pitch by semitones (easy math) without you [serato] having to do the extra work of key detection (which your suggestion would require). It's nice-to-have functionality for the novice user, but in the end they can go buy Mixed in Key for $50 if necessary (and I also recommend). I think we inevitably would like to introduce key detection regardless, too many people are simply asking for it in the software, even though I know Mixed In Key has a well established and solid system for key detection.

For someone like myself though, even if I go out and buy Mixed In Key, I still have to get used to the camelot system, so this is why I think we should provide key sync. I completely agree there should be a more manual function however provided for users such as yourself, and beside wanting control over it yourself, a feature like 'key sync' isn't always going to be 100% accurate I feel. Quote: In my opinion, i'd go for #1 (which negates the need for #2). For #3, i'd offer a pitch knob effect (like hardline Pioneer DJMs do) to allow fine-grained adjustment of pitch. You don't often find out-of-tune songs (at least I don't), so the #3 use case is much less important to me.

Thanks for staying engaged!:) Thanks for sharing your opinion, its really given me a few things to think about and discuss with my colleagues. At this point I am in agreement with your suggestion. I think even with only providing the two buttons for manual adjustment, someone could MIDI map these buttons to the left and right movements of a knob if they wanted to. I have mixed feelings about 'Key Sync'. It could sometimes be very handy, but other times it would not be optimal.

You don't want to mix in the same semi tone all night, you want to shift up/down gradually over the course of some songs so that it doesn't get boring. For example, you have a song playing in 7A.

You can mix a song in one semi tone up or down, 6A or 8A, and most people would think it sounds really good. If we have the ability to shift semi tones manually, I could take a 4A song and shift it up two semi tones to 6A while I mix it with the first song. Then once the second song is playing by itself I could shift it down to it's original 4A and so on. With Key Sync feature you would be more restricted in doing things like this - if I haven't misunderstood how you plan to implement it. Manual Key shift is what I rather would use.

Don't mind if you have auto-key-sync feature, as long as we have the ability to do it manually as an option. Quote: even if I go out and buy Mixed In Key, I still have to get used to the camelot system, so this is why I think we should provide key sync. Definitely not.

MIK has an option to switch between Camelot, Sharp, and Flat notation (as well as some other configurable options regarding where / how to notate (in ID3 tags, filenames, etc.)). I only use MIK to embed the key in the song, which Serato displays in the library. From there, I can sort the library by key and pick where I want to go.:) Key detection is notoriously hard, especially for songs that shift keys in the middle.

Before you guys invest dev dollars in the key detection/matching feature I hope you'll go after the pitch adjuster first (as it's much more simple/mathematical, and doesn't require a priori knowledge of the key). If you do go after the key detection piece you can do some really cool visualization of key in the waveform (see how MIK does it), but at the end of the day that's a nice-to-have that can already be covered with 3rd party software. In my humble opinion.:) Let me know when you're ready for an alpha/beta tester.:-D.

Quote: Perhaps there is some way to navigate through different keys appropriately and still using key sync, like 'energy up/down' buttons or something. That's a nice suggestion, also, some color coding for matching and 'semi matching keys' would be nice, while still beeing able to manual. Have a look at Rapid Evolution to see what I mean about color coding. I would suggest that the color coding could be applied only to the 'slave', ie the one to be mixed into the mix, and color only showed in the key field, not to confuse users with regular color code squares. Quote: Definitely not.

MIK has an option to switch between Camelot, Sharp, and Flat notation (as well as some other configurable options regarding where / how to notate (in ID3 tags, filenames, etc.)). I only use MIK to embed the key in the song, which Serato displays in the library. From there, I can sort the library by key and pick where I want to go.:) But those are all systems I don't understand or know how to use.

That is why I am suggesting an additional (but not replacement) system for people like myself that might simplify key mixing to some degree. DJ'd a wedding last night and the groom had requested ahead of time two particular songs for me to mash up to end the night. I had to do the mix ahead of time using VDJ, because the keys in each song sounded like a train wreck together. Nothing like sitting in front of your decks and pretending that you're mixing live, because your software doesn't have basic functionality. Would've been a disaster if he requested that mix during the gig. C'mon guys, you must have thought about implementing this common feature when you first launched the software.

Why have you given such an essential function that's so commonly used such little priority? You have six different reverbs to choose from, but no key changer. Put aside whatever extra curricular expansion pack you're developing at the moment aside and cover the basics. Quote: So you would load a key change effect in one of the DJ-FX slots?

I would think that you would want this accessible always, if you used it. I would be happy enough to have it just added it as an effect slot and included it in the pitch-n-time plugin which already incorporates time stretching (with a great algorithm). To me anyhow It would seem to be an obvious to add the functionality there.

It's not something I would use ALL the time, about 20% of the time at rough guess. Yes, I would certainly sacrifice an effect slot for times when needed. It would also mean no need to re-label controllers for the added feature.

There would also need to be a control panel to select various degrees of pitch shift as well - maybe ranging from +-3 semitones fine to +-20 rough to allow more accurate adjustment on a 127 step knob. A fine mode is certainly needed as overlapping Vocals or synths can sound a million miles off even if there is fluctuation in the recording of even.05 of a semitone.

So it looks like you've been focusing your time on trying to compete with Traktor and Ableton with the release of Flip in September. You know what you can do with both of those softwares? KEY CHANGE!!! Ableton is by far the best software out there for remixing and will probably always be, because that's what it's always been designed to do. You're not gonna go out and spin a standard DJ set with it like you would with Serato DJ. If I'm spinning EDM I go with Traktor, if I'm working on remixes in the studio or live triggering I'm using Ableton, and if I'm spinning a set that requires scratching, various transitions, and effects for manipulating all other music out there I'm going with Serato DJ. No way am I buying that expansion pack.

You're spreading yourself too thin Serato! Let's get that key change with the next update. Quote: For those of us who understand the Camelot wheel and how to manipulate around it to achieve certain effects (i.e. 'energy boost mixing'), key sync would be an absolute disaster. It would limit our ability to get creative with non-standard key mixings which definitely have an effect on a floor, most notably the major boost you get from the mixing two keys that will definitely clash horribly if you don't mix them quick enough.

Within a major or minor key, there are a handful of keys that will clash horribly due to a greater number of notes being sharp or flat compared to the original (or other related keys.) If those handful of keys were able to be transposed just 1 or 2 semitones in either direction, then there would be NO limitation between any song in a given key (minor or major) and any other song. If you're sticking to the 'safe' keys (for beginners to harmonic mixing), then +/- an octave would be sufficient, but could very well require Pitch In Time, I would imagine. That said, key sync would have a tough time dealing with mixing a song in a minor key and a major key (only two of the opposite major/minor key would work with any major/minor key.). Quote: Seems like it would save you having to make manual adjustments, for people who aren't super good at knowing the correct adjustments to make, its automatic for them? I know this will sound a lot like the old-school DJ (which I am) who bitched about BPM-sync, but harmonic mixing is a skill that takes some musical knowledge to use and use well. If key-sync were implemented, it would lead to a vast legion of Serato DJ's playing 'Beatport top-100-chart' sets in the same key and same BPM, from start to finish. Quote: I have to ask, and I hope this doesn't sound silly to you, but if there was just a 'key sync' button where it automatically made the appropriate adjustments to your track to get in the correct key, would you use that instead?

For those of us who understand the Camelot wheel and how to manipulate around it to achieve certain effects (i.e. 'energy boost mixing'), key sync would be an absolute disaster. It would limit our ability to get creative with non-standard key mixings which definitely have an effect on a floor, most notably the major boost you get from the mixing two keys that will definitely clash horribly if you don't mix them quick enough. Within a major or minor key, there are a handful of keys that will clash horribly due to a greater number of notes being sharp or flat compared to the original (or other related keys.) If those handful of keys were able to be transposed just 1 or 2 semitones in either direction, then there would be NO limitation between any song in a given key (minor or major) and any other song. If you're sticking to the 'safe' keys (for beginners to harmonic mixing), then +/- an octave would be sufficient, but could very well require Pitch In Time, I would imagine. That said, key sync would have a tough time dealing with mixing a song in a minor key and a major key (only two of the opposite major/minor key would work with any major/minor key.). Quote: Seems like it would save you having to make manual adjustments, for people who aren't super good at knowing the correct adjustments to make, its automatic for them?

I know this will sound a lot like the old-school DJ (which I am) who bitched about BPM-sync, but harmonic mixing is a skill that takes some musical knowledge to use and use well. If key-sync were implemented, it would lead to a vast legion of Serato DJ's playing 'Beatport top-100-chart' sets in the same key and same BPM, from start to finish. If you are playing from the Beatport top 100 chart the vast majority are already in the same key and BPM anyhow hehe:P +1 though an Auto Transpose would completely take all skill out of harmonic mixing, but I don't think Serato are about to take all the fun out of mixing just yet by adding a feature like that (at least I hope not!). But I don't think the original poster meant a locked down automatic feature, more of a 'tiptronic' gearbox of transpose, where you can select your own or do what it tells you to do - not that I think even that should be added. Lets just hope for a manual, by-ear transpose knob on the interface before they look at any kind of automatic, whizz bang, i-need-no-skillz to mix in key, auto transposing madness. Quote: So for you guys who have chipped into this discussion and use the feature in other software: Is the main reason usually for 'an effect'?

Or is this useful for key mixing e.g you know how many semitones to move through in order to match two songs? I never use it for an effect but rather as a creative tool for mixing incompatible keys but otherwise compatible songs. Definitely needs to be always available. I'd see it as simple as a plus and a minus button per deck, in semi-tone increments.

I guess a knob could be useful but I don't know how many times I'd need to mix something that is more than 3 semitones out so the range a knob provides isn't really useful imo. I am about to make the step between doing a few parties to a more professional set up.

Money is tight so I have been doing a huge amout of research - I don't want to get it wrong (or more like. Not as right as it could have been). It seems to me that that all the leading software all has its strengths and weaknesses so comparing them is not easy. I had made up my mind to invest (time in learning plus actual purchase) in Serato, but the lack of this feature does give me serious doubt. SO.can I give one more vote for this feature.

Unlike DjdiE I am going to take the view that MartinC would not have invested the time and energy in his questions without a good chance of this happening. I hope I am not proved wrong. I hope I am proved right very soon!! I rather have just a knob or buttons in the software to adjust the key manually. I want the freedom to change the key of any song freely/manually.

Suppose I play a song in 8A. I don't want to keep on playing in 8A all night do I want to take it slow down. Next song may be in 5A. During the transition I want to key shift the second song to 8A so they match. But later at a drop etc I'd like to adjust the key down to let's say 6A. To be able to adjust key on the fly like this is more important to me than an auto key sync. Is rather do it manually.

Sync on off may in some cases be too dramatic. I'd rather be able to do it manually/gradually when I want to adjust the key of a playing song.

So IMHO, no need for auto sync. Just the ability to shift they key in semitones is sufficient/desirable. Well, I see the 1.7.2 Beta is out and again nothing to help with this issue is being addressed, so I just jumped ship and mapped my controller to run the latest version of Traktor.

Runs like a champ, amazing effects, extremely user friendly, and..drum roll..KEY CHANGER!!! Thanks Serato! If it weren't for your lack of support I would've never realized that I probably should've been using Traktor all along for my style of DJing. Not saying I have anything against scratching, but with EDM it's all about the functionality and Traktor's pretty impressive. Better hurry up and pay more attention to your existing users before they start jumping ship as well. Quote: So IMHO, no need for auto sync. Just the ability to shift they key in semitones is sufficient/desirable.

If you mix with older tracks, trance or lots of vocals you'll know a semitone is not accurate enough, and tracks can clash BADLY if they are 1/4 tone out of place. A knob is IMHO the right way to do it, with an option of sensitivity adjustment between semitone / tone or cents as with Traktor or Ableton. Matching the keys automatically is a nice Idea for the future, but lets get the basics down first eh? Just give us a damn knob or something?;) This should have been done along with the release of Flip, which offers amazing potential creative control for remixing and yet no pitching option. Been thinking about getting an RP-8000 lately.then It dawned on me.wouldn't it be cool if I could use the pads to play notes on the RP-8000 like one might do on a Vestax Controller One.so I started brainstorming on how that would be achievable by MIDI mapping and the solution that came to mind as I was looking at the loop parameters buttons from 1/32, 1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 beats.so I started thinking Serato DJ could have the same type of parameters for Key changes.have the default key (0 pitch) be the sixth button. From there you can either pitch down five increments or pitch up six increments.like how there are 12 piano keys in one octave.

In most cases there wouldn't be a need to go beyond a full octave. Quote: Been thinking about getting an RP-8000 lately.then It dawned on me.wouldn't it be cool if I could use the pads to play notes on the RP-8000 like one might do on a Vestax Controller One.so I started brainstorming on how that would be achievable by MIDI mapping and the solution that came to mind as I was looking at the loop parameters buttons from 1/32, 1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 beats.so I started thinking Serato DJ could have the same type of parameters for Key changes.have the default key (0 pitch) be the sixth button. From there you can either pitch down five increments or pitch up six increments.like how there are 12 piano keys in one octave. In most cases there wouldn't be a need to go beyond a full octave. Sound like a good implementation. A transpose knob for each deck as an extention of PnT seems reasonable. However, I don't think implementing key detection is among top priorities for Serato as all serious users would still probably buy Mixed in Key.

Pitch-sync to me sounds absurd. Is it really that much work to look at the key tags of your files and pick songs with right keys? Also let's not forget that Traktor, Ableton and Serato are different from each other for a reason and if you want the best customization and tweaking options from your software of course you should switch to Traktor right now. Serato has different sntrenghts.

+ for this ofc. However, I'd say pitch-sync would be a unnecessary thing to have - given key information it'd be a 2 second job to do it visually with the right real-time controls and feedback (and for experienced musicians a 2 second job to do by ear). I imagine it wouldn't detect 'tuning' so to speak, so it wouldn't be a fully automatic system anyway. If you do implement it, treat it like the beat sync - press the button to get it more or less there, and nudge the track to get it spot on!

Again, >DEFINITELY. Quote: If you are saying it is not possible to do without knowing what key it is already in, that is not true. It is completely plausible to have key change/transposition ability without recognizing what key it is in. Basically a key change ability would mean the ability to transpose a track in semitones up or down, and it is not necessary for a software to recognize what key it is already in to be able to carry out this operation. Actually, if you want an accurate change to be made by Serato, in semitones, then this is not possible - the frequency change per semitone is not linear, so, if Serato is not given key information to begin with, it can't possibly know by what proportion it should raise/lower the fundamental frequencies to achieve a semitone change. You could still have a manual pitch shift dial, with feedback via a percentage, which would then rely on the DJs ears to match the pitches.

One more thing, If there IS key detection to be included in the software, PLEASE for the love of God make sure it's easily manually alterable for if/when a key is misidentified. Perhaps make it a one off processing thing, as how Serato detects the bpm - once it's decided what it thinks it is you can manually change it and Serato won't say otherwise! (Otherwise this would create obvious problems for an automatic system if false keys are left in!) We NEED this. Everyone's already said this, but Traktor has it, Virtual DJ (?), dJay, the list goes on. Considering you guys made that pitch'n'time plugin for pro tools that's supposed to be so good (haven't personally tried it), you'd think Serato would be leading in this area!

I mean I'm vaguely considering using dJay for low-key gigs for God's sake, what with the spotify integration and everything! Quote: But those are all systems I don't understand or know how to use.

That is why I am suggesting an additional (but not replacement) system for people like myself that might simplify key mixing to some degree. Forgive me, but how on earth can you not know Sharp or Flat notation.?

That's super basic music theory! (pretty sure that's covered in ABRSM Grade 1 actually)! Anyway, the crux of what I'm saying is, give as much manual control as you possibly can, for experienced musicians, but also to benefit those wanting to learn more and dive deeper. Quote: Actually, if you want an accurate change to be made by Serato, in semitones, then this is not possible - the frequency change per semitone is not linear, so, if Serato is not given key information to begin with, it can't possibly know by what proportion it should raise/lower the fundamental frequencies to achieve a semitone change. You could still have a manual pitch shift dial, with feedback via a percentage, which would then rely on the DJs ears to match the pitches. I'm sorry, but this just isn't true.

Torq (and Traktor and VDJ, I think) do semitone shifting without any key detection; I pasted a youtube video somewhere above that demonstrates said functionality in Torq and I believe I pasted the math behind it as well. Key detection is a messy business best left to 3rd party software.

I propose that first-order priority should be to provide a +/- based semitone adjustment, and that second-order should be to provide a fine grained (cents/knob based) adjustment mechanism for slightly-out-of-tune songs. I've been doing harmonic/transpositional mixing for years, and (in my case, at least) 95% of it would be covered by priority #1 above. Quote: Actually, if you want an accurate change to be made by Serato, in semitones, then this is not possible - the frequency change per semitone is not linear, so, if Serato is not given key information to begin with, it can't possibly know by what proportion it should raise/lower the fundamental frequencies to achieve a semitone change. You could still have a manual pitch shift dial, with feedback via a percentage, which would then rely on the DJs ears to match the pitches. I'm sorry, but this just isn't true. Torq (and Traktor and VDJ, I think) do semitone shifting without any key detection; I pasted a youtube video somewhere above that demonstrates said functionality in Torq and I believe I pasted the math behind it as well.

Was just about to point that out. Since musical intervals are proportional you only need to know the frequency of the sound and the interval you want to change it. For example a perfect fifth is a 3:2 ratio.

So do some quick algebra by setting up a proportion: 3/2 = nf/cf 3cf = 2nf 1.5cf = nf Where nf is new frequency and cf is current frequency. Quote: Was just about to point that out. Since musical intervals are proportional you only need to know the frequency of the sound and the interval you want to change it. For example a perfect fifth is a 3:2 ratio. So do some quick algebra by setting up a proportion: 3/2 = nf/cf 3cf = 2nf 1.5cf = nf I take your point, I guess when I said 'key detection' I really meant some form of pitch detection - which from your replies is in fact necessary, 'only need to know the frequency of the sound'? Isn't that how key detection works at a basic level anyway? Identifying the fundamentals?

Quote: I'm sorry, but this just isn't true. Torq (and Traktor and VDJ, I think) do semitone shifting without any key detection; I pasted a youtube video somewhere above that demonstrates said functionality in Torq and I believe I pasted the math behind it as well.

Torq and Traktor Both do fine.01 semitone adjustments - VDJ does semitone adjustments and thats one of the reasons I am not bothering to use it (despite an unlimited license). Semitone adjustment alone is almost as worthless as the complete lack thereof in Serato IMHO, and better the devil you know.

Wow this is unreal. I've decided to get back in to mixing again so: - just spent £1700 on a Pioneer DDJ-SZ - got a new mac so it can run without crashing every 2 mins like my old one does - and thus run serato And now.. Now I find there is no key adjust?

I checked for a few features before splashing out - but seriously. Something __this__ simple in this day and age - that even DJay has has been missing for this long? Simply astonishing. Seriously guys - cant you get an intern to just add this in over a weekend or something? Quote: Seriously guys - cant you get an intern to just add this in over a weekend or something?

That might be a bit unfair. Don't minimize the complexity of introducing an entirely new variable dimension to a real-time audio engine. I'm sure it's not something to be undertaken lightly.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not making excuses. You'll see I've been a vocal advocate for this functionality for a while now. If anyone has any ideas about how to motivate or turn the heat up on Serato for this feature please share your ideas. Key Adjust was my favourite feature in Traktor. I've made some pretty crazy mappings for playing melodies on hotcues - that was what, 3-4 years ago. But I really, really miss this feature because it allows you to blend stuff that just wouldn't go together, key lock or not.

Not to mention the insane possibilities for creative transitions. Pitch'n Time is superior to zPlane v2, but once NI releases TSP3 I fully expect it to adopt zPlane v3 - at which point PnT *must* get that feature, in my not-humble-at-all opinion.

I only use MiK as a reference - it's fun to just sort your entire collection by key and try to do a cross-genre mix based on that. But just as with beatmatching, it doesn't really matter because in the end it's all up to what your ears tell you. I think Serato, NI and everyone else should just let MiK keep their part of the market, because it's not like cute little Flow is likely to become a serious contender in the DJ industry. I don't get why a DVS has to do EVERYTHING - instead of trying to recreate something other people do better and getting lost in a sea of useless features (anyone here actually use Flips?), focus on fixing the stuff that needs work - like effects, which bug out so often I may just write a separate post about it and include a video. Bottom line: +9001 to key adjustment.

That's over nine thousand, Serato. That's mainly what I use it for is intros and outros. I also use it for making clean edits for songs that I would otherwise have to keep a second version of and copy all my cues, loops, and beatgrids to the second version. Its handy for making complex intros and outros as well. For example I do a lot of college events and pop music has to be well represented at those. The song Dark Horse has an interesting vocal loop at the beginning but there's too much talking over it to make it loopable so I use flip to stitch the pieces where no one is talking to create the full loop.

Another example is the song Without Me by Eminem which has no instrumental intro leading into the first lines of the song. So I use flip to create an 8 bar intro and jump to the beginning at the right time (which happens to be the 3 instead of 1 in this situation) to keep the phrase intact. Nice examples DJ Compiler. I do the same with flip.

'Last friday night' has an unusable 16 beat intro because the last two beats get part of a vocal. But not anymore:) It's amazing how you can do clever things like cutting out the vocals and grabbing another part of the song in its place to make an un-loopable song work.

I use it to make clean edits too. Some songs I just use it as a safety net to stop a song finishing that doesn't have an outro, by it automatically going back to the intro, while I'm busy scratching in on the other deck. It's an amazing tool when you need more hands. I have dared to use it live a few times now too without disaster (although I do hold my breath every time lol) What was this thread about again.oh yeah.

I disagree with having key/pitch adjustment as an effect. While it is probably the easiest thing to do from a development perspective, doing so will forever introduce some really nasty disadvantages: 1. Key changes will be for the entire duration of a song, and will rarely (if ever) be used in the way effects controls are usually implemented. Since key changes run through the whole song, they necessarily have to be completely configured prior to mixing in the song. Setting pitch adjustment in an effect bank and configuring the parameters would additional steps and (unnecessary) complexity to an already narrow opportunity window. Key adjustment (not pitch/tuning adjustment) is a finite, coarse-grained operation (steps in semitones, exactly). Effects knobs are too loose for a step operation like key adjustment, especially on the fly between songs.

In the best implementations I've used (in hardware & software), this has always been a separate mappable function (+ and - keys). Hell, I don't even care if it's not mapped to the hardware by default, just have a +/- in the GUI (for now). Just don't make it an effect!:) /b. @blaxthos: Maybe you think to complicated. Why should it stay on for a whole song and not only during a transition. With my solution it's easy for us to activate and deactivate with the push of only one single button whenever we want to.

Same for the adjustment, turn one single knob or don't turn it whenever you want to. Of course the adjustment on the knob should be prelistened and done while also doing gain adjustment, pitch adjustment, EQing and so on. This would just help to keep it real and use headphones again;). @BBN: not the first time I've been accused of thinking too complicatedly.;-) The nature of key adjustment is that you necessarily have it in place for the duration of a song (not just during a transition).

Using key adjustment as an effect can only considered 'push of only one single button' if you have already loaded the key adjustment effect into the bank and preset the correct adjustment parameters (a cumbersome process). It's doubtful anyone will want to essentially give up an entire effect slot for key change for a whole mix, which means we necessarily have a complex setup procedure (for key change) that must be completed in that narrow window between songs for complete setup. I propose that a hard-mapped standalone function that steps pitch up / down by a semitone using a single button press (+ / -) is much more efficient and aligns more closely with how this feature will be used. Speaking of efficiency, from a mathematics perspective it is much more graceful to do the pitch adjustment calculation in the same engine that does the speed/frequency adjustment (the core Serato engine), as pitch is just another variable in that function. Otherwise, the system will be doing quantization/adjustment twice (which, due to the nature of Fourier transforms, will introduce a lot more opportunity for loss and undesirable audio artifacts). I usually don't get this passionate about a single feature, but this case is the exception. This is critical functionality missing from Serato DJ, and it really needs to be done right for users to be able to use it easily.

My most strongest preference is that this is a feature of Pitch N' Time or some other add-on (yes, i'll pay!), and it's hardmapped to a distinct mappable control that steps the key up/down by semitones. My kingdom for this.

I don't care how it is created and programmed, but as a DJ to me the easiest way to use it would be in one of the effect slots and all I need would be my headphones for prelistening the next track, a button to activate keychange and a knob to turn left or right to adjust key. This could make everyone happy the easiest way.

You can leave your adjustent on for a transition only or a full song, just depends on for how long you leave it activated. What I definitly don't want is something like a key sync button. God gave me ears and I'm using them. Serato Programmers! We Still waiting for this amazing Feature!

Here is my suggestion: 1. Serato should make/buy a key finder program like 'Mixed in key' 2. When making ANALYZE - the program will ask how to Write the Key (Before/After 'File name' / Separate column) 3. Serato will find the key and write it to the IDtag so we can sort by this. 4 For using: maybe addind a fader in the software (parallel to Tempo fader) to each Deck will be efficient and easy - like the Tempo fader. I'm sure that after that key the controllers will also make another fader. I will be willing to pay for this and i belive also others a fair price.

Waiting for progress!! +1 for this feature. I would not leave the Serato Ship because of this missing feature. Serato is still too good:) But I really hope that it is comming within the next 2 updates.

It would be totaly okay if you could pitch it up or down without keyLock and then by pressing keyLock exactly the tone you had pitched before will stay and you could pitch back the tempo where you want it to without changing the key. When PnT came out I thought it would be like that but. Please Serato, bring the keyChanging ability! +1 As a classically trained pianist, this feature is essential.

I started dj'ing with a pair of CDJ-800's timecoded to a DJM-707 running VDJ. And my sets sounded amazing because I had the ability to shift key. 5 years into it, I upgraded to a DDJ-SR which came equipped with Serato, awesome, I was stoked. I get home, start mixing, and voila, no key change ability, 'no worries' I thought to myself, this is upgraded and updated technology. USB this, Serato that. Then I found Pitch N Time online, 'excellent!'

I thought, and happily forked over for the expansion. No, no pitch shift ability here. You've got to be kidding me Serato. Virtual DJ did all the same things you did at a fraction of the price + key change ability. I only upgraded to DDJ-SR and Serato because of the pioneer brand, and because everyone was always talking about Serato or Traktor, and no one gave love to Virtual DJ. Reading up on Traktor, looks like they have more effects, don't nickel and dime you for expansions, and also have the ability to CHANGE KEY.

Way to lose a customer. TO ALL THOSE READING THIS THREAD FOR THE FIRST TIME - SERATO DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHANGE KEY. DO NOT PAY EXTRA FOR SOFTWARE THAT 'ANALYZES' YOUR LIBRARY FOR KEY. Use your ears and a DAW that actually cares about its customers.

This forum was started two months and two years ago. A Serato representative responded on JUNE of 2014, A YEAR LATER. And last responded in August of 2014 saying 'in due time'. Quote: +1 As a classically trained pianist, this feature is essential. I started dj'ing with a pair of CDJ-800's timecoded to a DJM-707 running VDJ.

And my sets sounded amazing because I had the ability to shift key. 5 years into it, I upgraded to a DDJ-SR which came equipped with Serato, awesome, I was stoked. I get home, start mixing, and voila, no key change ability, 'no worries' I thought to myself, this is upgraded and updated technology. USB this, Serato that. Then I found Pitch N Time online, 'excellent!'

I thought, and happily forked over for the expansion. No, no pitch shift ability here.

You've got to be kidding me Serato. Virtual DJ did all the same things you did at a fraction of the price + key change ability.

I only upgraded to DDJ-SR and Serato because of the pioneer brand, and because everyone was always talking about Serato or Traktor, and no one gave love to Virtual DJ. Reading up on Traktor, looks like they have more effects, don't nickel and dime you for expansions, and also have the ability to CHANGE KEY. Way to lose a customer.

TO ALL THOSE READING THIS THREAD FOR THE FIRST TIME - SERATO DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHANGE KEY. DO NOT PAY EXTRA FOR SOFTWARE THAT 'ANALYZES' YOUR LIBRARY FOR KEY. Use your ears and a DAW that actually cares about its customers. This forum was started two months and two years ago.

M A Serato representative responded on JUNE of 2014, A YEAR LATER. And last responded in August of 2014 saying 'in due time'. WOW As a classically trained pianist are you really saying that because sdj can't change key means you shouldn't bother finding out they key of your tracks?

Quote: +1 As a classically trained pianist, this feature is essential. I started dj'ing with a pair of CDJ-800's timecoded to a DJM-707 running VDJ. And my sets sounded amazing because I had the ability to shift key. 5 years into it, I upgraded to a DDJ-SR which came equipped with Serato, awesome, I was stoked. I get home, start mixing, and voila, no key change ability, 'no worries' I thought to myself, this is upgraded and updated technology. USB this, Serato that.

Then I found Pitch N Time online, 'excellent!' I thought, and happily forked over for the expansion. No, no pitch shift ability here. You've got to be kidding me Serato. Virtual DJ did all the same things you did at a fraction of the price + key change ability. I only upgraded to DDJ-SR and Serato because of the pioneer brand, and because everyone was always talking about Serato or Traktor, and no one gave love to Virtual DJ. Reading up on Traktor, looks like they have more effects, don't nickel and dime you for expansions, and also have the ability to CHANGE KEY.

Way to lose a customer. TO ALL THOSE READING THIS THREAD FOR THE FIRST TIME - SERATO DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHANGE KEY. DO NOT PAY EXTRA FOR SOFTWARE THAT 'ANALYZES' YOUR LIBRARY FOR KEY. Use your ears and a DAW that actually cares about its customers.

This forum was started two months and two years ago. M A Serato representative responded on JUNE of 2014, A YEAR LATER. And last responded in August of 2014 saying 'in due time'. WOW As a classically trained pianist are you really saying that because sdj can't change key means you shouldn't bother finding out they key of your tracks? If you need to find out the keys of your tracks to figure out what sounds good. When you develop relative pitch you can 'hear' it. Quote: +1 As a classically trained pianist, this feature is essential.

I started dj'ing with a pair of CDJ-800's timecoded to a DJM-707 running VDJ. And my sets sounded amazing because I had the ability to shift key. 5 years into it, I upgraded to a DDJ-SR which came equipped with Serato, awesome, I was stoked. I get home, start mixing, and voila, no key change ability, 'no worries' I thought to myself, this is upgraded and updated technology.

USB this, Serato that. Then I found Pitch N Time online, 'excellent!'

I thought, and happily forked over for the expansion. No, no pitch shift ability here. You've got to be kidding me Serato. Virtual DJ did all the same things you did at a fraction of the price + key change ability. I only upgraded to DDJ-SR and Serato because of the pioneer brand, and because everyone was always talking about Serato or Traktor, and no one gave love to Virtual DJ. Reading up on Traktor, looks like they have more effects, don't nickel and dime you for expansions, and also have the ability to CHANGE KEY.

Way to lose a customer. TO ALL THOSE READING THIS THREAD FOR THE FIRST TIME - SERATO DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHANGE KEY. DO NOT PAY EXTRA FOR SOFTWARE THAT 'ANALYZES' YOUR LIBRARY FOR KEY.

Use your ears and a DAW that actually cares about its customers. This forum was started two months and two years ago. M A Serato representative responded on JUNE of 2014, A YEAR LATER.

And last responded in August of 2014 saying 'in due time'. WOW As a classically trained pianist are you really saying that because sdj can't change key means you shouldn't bother finding out they key of your tracks? If you need to find out the keys of your tracks to figure out what sounds good.

When you develop relative pitch you can 'hear' it. So you know what tracks will mix in key before you select them because you know if they will go once you play them? Quote: I'm not sure what you're asking here. Right now I preview a track through ddj-sr's soundcard to see if it is in tune. I use the 3%/6% semi-tone rule but am still limited to about a 1/4 of my library in any given key. Key change allows the ability to adust, not match. Why not just analyse them so that you know straight away which tracks will mix in key without having to preview?

And you're missing the point, it's not about knowing the key. It's the ability to adjust it. I regulsrly recieve requests and about half my pay is in tips, wih vortual dj and traktor I can throw in requests on the fly, even sample hem in. Now I have to say, 'uhh sorry, that request isn't in key wih my set' LAME. Quote: SERATO DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHANGE KEY.

DO NOT PAY EXTRA FOR SOFTWARE THAT 'ANALYZES' YOUR LIBRARY FOR KEY. This is the comment I have a problem with Again, I am not saying not to analyze your library. Serato does not have the ability to change key.

If you want to pay for Mixed in Key and again for Pitch N Time, awesome. But neither will provide you with the ability to change the pitch or key of your song. I don't think anyone who read what pitch in time does thought that it would let you. It has been heavily implied that the expansion pack would be upgraded free of charge to include pitch change. If you just want an improved keylock then you should buy it at your earliest convenience. If you want the ability to change the key just wait for PnT to be updated. Sorry but all I understood was: 'I didn't read what I was paying for and now I'm pissed' I wrote this a dozen times in these forums and I will continue to do so: Never buy any product for the features it may or may not have in the future.

If the current product fits your needs: Enjoy the great piece of software that you just got. If it doesn't: Don't blame the company. Blame yourself. Yeah, I know this is a feature suggestion area but it should be for existing customers that are satisfied with the product as is. I like SDJ and I will like it even more with every useful feature added. I don't buy NI or Atomix products and then go to their forums to complain about the things they don't offer compared to Serato. It just doesn't make any sense.

Quote: where the key lock button simply locks the pitch wherever it is instead of jumping it back to 0% Let me make sure I understand this correctly. Turn off key lock, adjust the pitch (which also adjust the key coz key lock is off). Then turn key lock back on (which now locks it at that specific key you just adjusted it to). Then adjust pitch for correct bpm? It seems a bit long winded, certainly is a very unique way of getting things done. As long as we can see the key change whilst we change the pitch, I guess it could work. I would still just prefer a simple knob & shift combination to change the key.

Quote: I wrote this a dozen times in these forums and I will continue to do so: Never buy any product for the features it may or may not have in the future. If the current product fits your needs: Enjoy the great piece of software that you just got. If it doesn't: Don't blame the company. Blame yourself. I buy the software that has the address the MAJORITY of features I need, there is no such piece of software yet that has ALL the features I would like to see, drawing comparisons to other software that has had this implemented for years is an easy way to explain what we would like to see. Its a feature suggestion forum, all we can hope for is that when manufacturer actively asks for additional feature suggestions that they might listen to the many voices who all want the same thing and get a chance to have a look at how others are implementing those features successfully.

Are you in audio engineering? Or programming? I'm not but I have a common sense that key correction/shifting/etc.

Isn't easy or basic at all. Audio Engineering yes, programming no. I'm not suggesting any feature that shifts the key of a track as required in a set is basic as in easy to implement (although you'd guess with P'NT a lot of the groundwork is probably done). What I'm suggesting is the feature is a fairly fundamental one, one that exists and works well in other platforms. There's obviously demand for it, clearly demonstrated by this thread. In my opinion, people who don't think they'll use it will be surprised how useful (and fundamental) it is if it's ever made available.

As for a paid feature or not, if we have to pay for it to make it happen, I'll happily pay. I use key change (semi-tone and fine adjustment) in Traktor in a variety of scenarios from simply wanting to keep my mixes harmonic between key changes to basically correcting a poorly recorded song (or bad singing) that is slightly out of key so it fits into the next without it sounding like a bunch of cats being strangled. A major +1 from me. There are so many implementations of it out there in terms of hardware and software (with open source availability in programmed key changes)! Pitch 'n' Time is half way there with the high quality key locking with tempo changes, now we just need it expanded to have a nob to: - Allow us to key lock at any key so the tempo can be changed with a key lock engaged and / or - Allow us to change the key (rotary knob with fine adjustments for those 'bad recordings') - With the above in mind, a function to jump by semi-tone - Provide a snap-back function to reset the key offset to 0 I'm sure there are other things but the above would be a pretty damn powerful addition. Apologies if this has already been mentioned - This needs to be implemented in a fine control surely, rather than a coarse step setup. A number of songs aren't exactly on key anyway, especially in sample-based music.

Let us sort out the pitch with our ears! I personally would find it >infuriatingPLEASE ADD THIS FEATUREADD THIS FEATURELISTEN TO THE CONSUMERIT'S REALLY NOT THAT CONTROVERSIALJUST ADD IT.

Davster, out of curiosity, if you aren't going to change by semitones, then why wouldn't you just turn key lock off and use the pitch fader on your player? Seems to me that would be much easier. In atonal or as you call it 'sample based music' the song doesn't have a key to adjust in the first place, so trying to match key doesn't make a lot of sense - music theory 101.

All you can do is match tone and the pitch fader would do that already, so it seems to me that the pitch control already does what you want. So I'm kind of confused by your response. Either things play in a key, or they don't. If you're talking about differences in root node, then that doesn't really apply to key control, and is an overall pitch issue. You'd adjust your pitch slider to match, and then if the music root note matches the root note you want, then key control would once again only go up or down by semi-tones.

So you might be asking for a different feature than key control. Is that the case? Quote: Davster, out of curiosity, if you aren't going to change by semitones, then why wouldn't you just turn key lock off and use the pitch fader on your player? Seems to me that would be much easier. In atonal or as you call it 'sample based music' the song doesn't have a key to adjust in the first place, so trying to match key doesn't make a lot of sense - music theory 101.

All you can do is match tone and the pitch fader would do that already, so it seems to me that the pitch control already does what you want. So I'm kind of confused by your response. Either things play in a key, or they don't. If you're talking about differences in root node, then that doesn't really apply to key control, and is an overall pitch issue.

You'd adjust your pitch slider to match, and then if the music root note matches the root note you want, then key control would once again only go up or down by semi-tones. So you might be asking for a different feature than key control. Is that the case? But increasing pitch also increase speed.

Quote: Davster, out of curiosity, if you aren't going to change by semitones, then why wouldn't you just turn key lock off and use the pitch fader on your player? Seems to me that would be much easier.

In atonal or as you call it 'sample based music' the song doesn't have a key to adjust in the first place, so trying to match key doesn't make a lot of sense - music theory 101. All you can do is match tone and the pitch fader would do that already, so it seems to me that the pitch control already does what you want. So I'm kind of confused by your response. Either things play in a key, or they don't. If you're talking about differences in root node, then that doesn't really apply to key control, and is an overall pitch issue.

You'd adjust your pitch slider to match, and then if the music root note matches the root note you want, then key control would once again only go up or down by semi-tones. So you might be asking for a different feature than key control.

Is that the case? I see what you're trying to say, however I think you may have misunderstood my post.

(and I assure you I do know what I'm talking about with music theory). Yes, obviously you can turn key lock off and change the speed to change the pitch. However in this discussion we're talking about changing the tuning (and therefore the key) of the track >independently. Given the fine tuning and necessity for a human ear to make the adjustment here, it really does seem to me that what you want is to use a pitch slider to match your root note first, and that should be it. The pitch slider already does exactly what you're asking for.

If you know what key your music is in, say C major, and it's off by a couple hertz, you take keylock off and adjust with the slider which is what I do. Given that your standard slider goes +/- 10% at least these days, and with plugins like pitch-n-time it can be mapped to go way beyond that, it seems duplication of already existing functionality. Even if you had a control for cents up or down - the lowest meaningful interval in western music, I'm not sure that it would really gain you very much more flexibility than moving to a semitone up or down and fine tuning with your pitch slider. I'd be interested to see how you would see something like this working. If you know cross DJ / mixvibes, it has an ability to go up or down by semitones, and I'd be really hard pressed to find a situation in which that kinda control isn't granular enough, and if it was, being able to use the pitch control seems that it would allow me to correct enough.

I don't see any reason why someone wouldn't want to implement it, but on the other hand I'm not sure I see much of an advantage in club or dance music.:). BBD, pitch and tempo are different. This is why you have keylock and timestretching stuff these days. If you turn the keylock off, then yeah by increasing speed you increase pitch, but if you want to adjust the key of a song up and keep the same tempo by less than a semitone, you will find that there is for most songs of under 5 mins length virtually no observable change in the tempo, unless you're going up by full tones, and easily correctable by the occasional hit on a nudge button, or draggin a platter. Human drummers drift more than that between bars. Quote: BBD, pitch and tempo are different. This is why you have keylock and timestretching stuff these days.

If you turn the keylock off, then yeah by increasing speed you increase pitch, but if you want to adjust the key of a song up and keep the same tempo by less than a semitone, you will find that there is for most songs of under 5 mins length virtually no observable change in the tempo, unless you're going up by full tones, and easily correctable by the occasional hit on a nudge button, or draggin a platter. Human drummers drift more than that between bars. If you have two separate tracks playing at the same time, even the slightest little change can cause havoc with, for example, the groove. It's just not true that changing it by a semitone won't affect the tempo. Besides, what about the DJs who don't bother manually beat matching (I mean why would you with Serato tbh). As soon as you hit that sync button it's gonna screw up your carefully measured tuning.

If you have key lock disabled and you drag the platter it's gonna cause a noticeable increase or decrease in pitch. Quote: There could of course be a coarse AND a fine control. With most pitch shifting plugins for DAWs you can tune it to the correct pitch with a fine control and then shift it up entire semitones with another control. Without the fine control though you're severely limited. So the obvious workaround would be to correct that slight sharpness in a DAW before bringing the track into the DJ application? I'm not opposed to fine resolution key change in SDJ, but I just think other functions are more needed currently.

Fine resolution tempo change in internal mode. (+/- 1% as in SSL). Quote: BBD, pitch and tempo are different. This is why you have keylock and timestretching stuff these days. If you turn the keylock off, then yeah by increasing speed you increase pitch, but if you want to adjust the key of a song up and keep the same tempo by less than a semitone, you will find that there is for most songs of under 5 mins length virtually no observable change in the tempo, unless you're going up by full tones, and easily correctable by the occasional hit on a nudge button, or draggin a platter. Human drummers drift more than that between bars. A one semitone increase can require a 6% adjustment.

Quote: A one semitone increase can require a 6% adjustment Absolutely! Some can take even more. But we're talking about fine tuning sub semitone adjustments, not whole tones, and 6% is well within the range of just about any pitch slider you're gonna encounter. That's all I'm saying.

So on the surface it seems that fine tuning lower than a semitone is already sort of doable with pitch faders. So if you need to go up say B ->C and 1/3 of an interval, you increase by one semitone with a control and then nudge up say 1%. As I said before, human drummers on old vinyl drift more than that in their tempo between bars, so classic vinyl skills pushing and nudging can compensate for the drift in tempo. Elektrisch Schema Huisinstallatie Symbolen Godsdienst. To be clear, I am not against it.

I just think it seems overkill from a coding perspective. Instead of using a frequency lookup table, you probably end up having to do fourier transforms which is computationally expensive. I think WarpNote makes a really good point above. The obvious thing is to fine tune tracks offline in another DAW with better time stretching and aliasing.

Heck, even in free stuff like audacity. The reason I agree is that 99% of all the music we play at club or dance event is gonna be within half an interval of a key root note, or it's not gonna be in key at all. Either way, fine tuning to that level seems a bit overkill. It's a bit like buying a brand new McLaren F1 if where you live only has dirt and gravel roads. Again, not against it, but I have serious doubts that it's gonna have much practical world use when performing. If I really had to lock on a harmonic mix between two songs and move up and interval and a quarter in a live situation, I think I might consider doing what WarpNote suggested and key correct the track in live, audacity or 'tools first. However, I suppose not everyone is comfortable with that, and someone may have a creative use for detuning a song, so as I said, not against it.

As mentioned above, I'd be interested to see how someone would implement this and use it. Be interesting to check out and play with for sure. I also like WarpNote's point about fine rez tempo changes. On my NS7 2, I can do this by setting the pitch range with the controller, but when using DVS with my SL2, that doesn't seem to be an option in SDJ like it was in SSL.

However I will say that for the large part Ive found it unnecessary in SDJ, as the occasional platter nudge or bend button hit has compensated for what tiny drift I have seem. I'm pretty careful about mapping my beatgrids however. Correct me if I'm wrong, but giving us a totally loose control would surely be simpler from a coding perspective than something that shifts up or down by semitones?

Pretty sure the Hz gaps between semitones decreases at pitch increases, so all you'd have to do with a loose control is make sure the resolution was high enough to cover cent-sized changes at the highest reasonable pitches and the rest can be done by ear. This was discussed in quite a lot of detail a long way up the discussion - a number of users pointed out that semitone shifting would hence require pitch detection. Regarding the 'just fix it on a DAW' comments - what about when you've got a giant library and you're mixing on the fly? You can't honestly be suggesting that one goes through their entire library making sure each track is exactly 'in tune'. With any sort of respectable library that would take days at least, if not hundreds of hours. Aside from anything else, decent pitch-shifting is few and far between in native plugins that come with DAWs, and 3rd party plugins that are any good can cost you a pretty penny.

Logic Pro's pitch-shifting is >awful. Quote: So the obvious workaround would be to correct that slight sharpness in a DAW before bringing the track into the DJ application?

I'm not opposed to fine resolution key change in SDJ, but I just think other functions are more needed currently. Fine resolution tempo change in internal mode. (+/- 1% as in SSL) What WarpNote is saying about correcting the tuning in a DAW would surely be equivalent to me just saying to you 'it doesn't matter if we don't have particularly high resolution tempo-change because you can just bring it to an exact integer BPM value in a DAW'. Given that, in my experience, the human ear is far more attuned to hearing slight changes in pitch rather than slight changes in tempo, those slight differences in BPM can already be effectively quashed with nudging yet there's nothing remotely as effective for small pitch changes, and the fact that there isn't this much-wanted pitch-shifting feature yet at all, it seems that pitch-shifting (in whatever technical form) is actually something 'more needed'. Having a loose control gives creative control also (as Amplogik briefly alluded to) - lets say I've got a track in C major and I'm shifting up a notch to D major with the next song (now, yes, that's obviously a tone not less than a semitone) - with the right context it might work nicely to gradually bring the pitch up (lets say if there's a 'pad' section or sustained tone in the current track).

If we were stuck with straight semi-tone jumps this would be impossible - this wouldn't be something you could do in a DAW unless you knew what transition you were going to make (and then you might as well say 'F*ck it' and just do the stitching in the DAW as well! Not really seeing any convincing reasons why having a fine control would be a >disadvantage. Quote: I have serious doubts that it's gonna have much practical world use when performing.

Until you've got it and start using it. Setting your whole library to one key in a DAW is both impractical and undesirable - who wants to be constrained to the same key every single time they jump on the decks? Setting the key using a DAW also means you have to have your entire set worked out before you play. Some of us like to inject a bit of spontaneity when we play. Do we pre-plan every conversation we have and configure our sentences accordingly?

It's also not overkill. To extend Amplogik's car analogy, it's like saying why would I want to be able to plug in my mp3 player to the car stereo, I've got FM radio to play tunes. Well, because it gives more flexibility, more choice, and more control. Who doesn't want that?

Torq 2.0 had this function way back in 2009/2010. It was flexible, it opened up a whole range of options mixing on the fly, it sounded good, it did not chew up CPU. Come on Serato, it's a fundamental piece of functionality and this pretty substantial thread clearly shows your users want it. Why ignore that? Quote: Setting your whole library to one key in a DAW is both impractical and undesirable - who wants to be constrained to the same key every single time they jump on the decks?

Nobody said that mate. We're talking about correcting to the closest key if it's out of key. That would just be stupid. As for Torq, it allowed you to change by semitones up or down, which was already suggested by yours truly up above. It didn't go finer than that because just about nobody needs in in the real world. 99.999% of all western music is written and performed in one fo the standard 24 keys seperated by semitones.

More fine grained control than that IS computationally expensive when having to do frequency analysis over a domain. Ask any third year math major.;) This is why stuff like mixed in key, or keyfinder work offline and write the data to the ID3 tags rather than doing key analysis real time. If you can detect a key ahead of time, you at least have somewhere to start to base movement up and down the scale.

If however, your music is not in a known key, then there is no standard tuning that is going to work, and a fine control is gonna be as much use as wearing oven mitts for protection while trying to thread a needle. Key change ability is not meaningful because there is no key. So you're left to straight tuning by frequency domain, and that is a lot more complex to implement in code. Again, not against it, but fine tuning in between semitones is unnecessary for just about any western music or club play. Musician's don't say 'Hey, can you pick up and follow me in the key of E Major and 1/5th. No, they agree on tunings ahead of time, and what scale, and that's where you get your keys.

Now, the musicans may all agree to A444 instead of A440, but the harmonic difference in practice is negligible to the human ear unless you REALLY bend it outside that, which case, the ear will hear it as another key. Let me put it this way, you can pick up a guitar and play Stairway to Heaven in A minor, but you can't pick up a guitar and play Stairway to Heaven in A minor + 2.4%. Nor would you want to, because it would fall apart later on in the song. Adjusting for 'slightly off' is what the DJ's mixing skills are for. This is why I think that fine tuning of less than a semitone is overkill.

It massively complicates the calculation requirements, meaning exponentially more time to implement, and won't add anything significant to 99.99% of mixing, and that remainder might just be a matter of selecting different music rather than trying to force things together that don't have harmonies. If it was that important to you that you get those two songs harmonically matched, then the right thing to do, is take the song that's drifted off key and clean it up in a DAW and moving it to one key or the other instead of the no man's land in between.:). Before I have my rant, I think it might be advantageous to actually define the terms we're using here and make some things clear - because certain things people are saying seem to be confusing the issue. Tuning = what frequency each >individualTuning is DIFFERENT and SEPARATE from what key a song is in. Quote: Again, not against it, but fine tuning in between semitones is unnecessary for just about any western music or club play.

But that's just not true! I play violin, which is a stringed instrument without frets in case anybody here didn't know that (duh).

As I alluded to above, there's a whole tuning debate regarding the different tuning systems! You've got equal temperament (brought in for keyboards pretty much), 'just' intonation, pythagorean, etc etc etc. These aren't just theoretical things they're tuning systems people actually use and can actively tell the difference between. In 'Classical' (to use the broad layman's term) performance a professional string quartet will play with tuning quite different from how it might play with a piano since the piano would determine whether they were restricted to equal temperament. This doesn't mean that the quartet is tuning to something other than A=440Hz, it means that the subsequent intervals above and below that are different - the tuning SYSTEM is different, not the tuning practice.

The tuning practice here can also change however, I suspect a few of you might be aware that in the Baroque era they tuned A to something more like 415Hz, this is a very noticeable change to the musically trained (when put side by side with 440Hz in any case, even if not played at the exact same time). Whilst it's true that most of well-known western music (miles off 99.999%, but accept your generalisation for the sake of it) is written to a 'key', that does not mean that all of recorded western music is recorded in the same tuning system or practice. In fact, it'd probably be technically fair to say that a majority of live recorded music is NOT recorded to the exact same tuning practice. Quote: Musician's don't say 'Hey, can you pick up and follow me in the key of E Major and 1/5th.

No, they agree on tunings ahead of time, and what scale, and that's where you get your keys. Now, the musicans may all agree to A444 instead of A440, but the harmonic difference in practice is negligible to the human ear unless you REALLY bend it outside that, which case, the ear will hear it as another key. Being a performing musician myself, I can tell you that whilst they don't say that, that isn't to say that they don't adjust their tunings on the fly to interact with each other. 'E major and a 1/5th' just doesn't mean anything at all (see definitions up top). Quote: Let me put it this way, you can pick up a guitar and play Stairway to Heaven in A minor, but you can't pick up a guitar and play Stairway to Heaven in A minor + 2.4%. Nor would you want to, because it would fall apart later on in the song.

I'm not personally sure what change +2.4% would make, but you certainly CAN pick up an instrument, tune it sharp, and play the same song, in the same 'key', just sharp. I could pick up a cello, tune A to 455Hz (along with the corresponding pitches on the C, G, and G string) and play a piece of Bach that opens in G major - it would still be 'G major' even though A is tuned differently. Quote: Again, not against it, but fine tuning in between semitones is unnecessary for just about any western music or club play. But that's just not true! I play violin, which is a stringed instrument without frets in case anybody here didn't know that (duh).

That's why I said for club play. However, there is a typo.

'or' should be 'for'. You're very infrequently gonna be playing the Brandenburg Concerto No. 3 tuned flat in concert. I play folk on Banjo and Lute for fun. Chances of hearing I'll Fly Away or any other bluegrass in a club with a DJ are pretty slim too. Modern dance, pop and electronic music is nearly always composed on a standard tuned 12 semitones to the octave keyboard, and most often in a minor key. On top of which, by the time producers are done with recordings, even most western stuff is mapped to a specific key on the circle of fifths.

It's somewhat an artefact of the tools used to create recordings these days. This is why even in DAWs like ableton, hardware samplers and so on, that sample playback tuning adjustments are done in semitones, and master tuning is set elsewhere.

I'd be very interested if someone could turn me onto a popular artist that goes outside of that commonly. I mean I know it's not gonna happen with a lot of older classical or bluegrass recodings, but we're not dropping that in the club that often. The challenge of course is that in the case of a DJ, there's no set master tune, because third party recorded music is all over the place.

So I can kinda see it getting used, but not that often unless you're doing something really specialized. I can think of once in 25 years of DJing where I worked with a cellist and a flutist, but there I prepped loops and tracks ahead of time in Live.

Quote: I totally agree. But as we've discussed, there aren't any decent tools for this 'adjusting' at the moment. Turning key lock off, pitch fader and nudging the platter works for me. It's worked for DJs since Jazzy Jeff. The only downside I see to this is if you have to force a specific song more than a few BPM out, or the original key is entirely different than what you want. In which case, this is a job for a DAW with complex time warping ability.

I think this is largely the exception rather than the rule. Frankly, I'd be happy to see that capability, but even just being able to bump a songs key up or down by a few semitones ala Torq or CrossDJ/Mixvibes would cover nearly anything you're gonna find yourself having to do in a live context. But hey, if it turns out that fine tuning between semitones is just as easy to code, and it makes someone happy. Sure, why not.

Quote: I'm not personally sure what change +2.4% would make Almost none. Try it in protools. Minor differences on the high end. If you're not classically trained, you're probably not gonna hear it. This is why I say that sub semitone tuning would largely be a waste of time.

Unless you have perfect pitch and a decade of formal musical training, I doubt very much that you're gonna hear much difference, as we tend to hear in equal temperament unless you're one of those lucky sods with perfect pitch.:) Great post Davester! Good explanation of tuning vs key for those that don't have the music theory background. I suspect a lot of folk have some trouble understanding keys and what they represent. So when you talk about changing key, or moving up or down semitones, it might be confusing or give the wrong impression.

I don't have time at the moment to write a proper reply to this point yet, but I was just going through some music and BAM. Found a key example - Listen to 'I'm not alone' by Calvin Harris. I think we can agree that Calvin Harris is a pretty 'big' artist, even if this song is relatively old.

I challenge you to try and play along with that on a piano and not to flinch. It's less than a semitone out of tune, and it's >extremely.

Quote: Dude, that is E min pretty much straight up. A,A, B,B C, E, G, C and D. I can play it fine on a keyboard. I'm not saying you can't play the song on a keyboard.

Have you tried playing ALONG? At the same time at the same octave? If not, try it again.

You're surely not telling me you can't hear the dissonance between how the piano is tuned and the tuning of the synths in the song? (If you're playing along on a real piano then to be fair I don't know how out of tune yours is). They're very noticeably out of tune with each other. Take it to any decent classically trained musician and they'll back that up. I'm aware the keyfinding software finds it to be E minor - the key-finding software will find it to the nearest 'in tune' key, not that it has much bearing on what we're talking about anyway - I'll quote myself. Tuning = what frequency each >individualTuning is DIFFERENT and SEPARATE from what key a song is in. Quote: I'm not sure why changing the pitch in a seperate programme (or even audacity) once so you don't have to ever again isn't a good option.

Well, the point is that that's a destructive change to the audio file, usually heavily degrading the 'quality' of the sound. It's also a total pain for large libraries, and takes out creative applications of having a loose pitch bend. Go ahead and open up audacity, if you've got a decent listening setup, and change it up or down half a semitone. You should instantly hear a noticeable drop in audio fidelity - if you're playing that out in certain clubs you might cause all sorts of problems. If you can't hear the problems, or you think they're just fine, then by all means play that out in the club, a lot of people probably wouldn't notice in a club situation anyway - just know that producers / audio engineers / musicians / anybody who knows about music listening will be giving you a dodgy look. As I mentioned in a previous post, a lot of DJs talk about how important having high quality audio files is (using FLAC files for example).

Bearing this in mind, completely buttf***ing the integrity of the audio by suggesting pitch shifting an entire song in audacity seems rather ridiculous. Paid application's native pitch shifting often isn't that much better to be honest despite being rather expensive, and all sorts of artefacts are generated. It can quickly turn a clean track's low end into a rumbling mess. I understand Serato's Pitch 'n Time Pro plugin for Pro Tools is rather good, however it costs $799 (note, this is very different from the expansion for Serato DJ) [by the way, this means that Serato obviously already have the technology for this, and therefore presumably wouldn't require that much development].

The crux of the matter is that as a professional DJ software, Serato should be striving to provide the best features in the best possible implementation. I've just been reading a vaguely similar discussion over on djtechtools about Traktor and guess what I found about how it works for NI. Quote: -from The knob itself reads in decimal places 0.0-0.01-0.02---0.99-1.00-1.01 etc. So if say a song in the key of A is slightly different (flat or sharp) from another song in the key of A, then you can tune them to match. So, Traktor already has this functionality I speak of. Maybe I'm just whining, but currently Serato seems to only be on par feature-wise with freebie iPad apps! (now yes yes, Serato is more reliable, 'more professional', perhaps does certain things better etc etc).

A way this could be implemented also just occurred to me that could satisfy both sides of the fence (I'm using the buttons on my DDJ-SX as reference here since I don't have much experience with other Serato controllers): a) Keylock button has two functions now - clicking it toggles key lock on and off as normal. Holding down key lock toggles coarse/loose (and fine) semitone pitch changes. B) Rotary knob, or a button-combination + the tempo slider can change the pitch in a loose form. That way, guys who don't give a flying monkey-ball (anybody remember that game?) about special tuning instances or creative applications can simply dial up or down to their desired key with the coarse shifter, and those of us who want more control can use the loose fine setup.

It also just occurred to me - assuming no key-detection software is implemented (and even if it is that would be done in the analysis of the track not upon arming the deck) then of course you can still have coarse pitch-shifting - Wave's pitch shifter VST/AU plugin does just that - and if you're gonna have semitone adjustments in this light then I'm 99% sure it makes no difference AT ALL to be able to have a fine control. Waves allows you to change the pitch by a ratio of up to something like 5 decimal places - any software that shifts up or down even by a semitone minimum would have to have at least a certain resolution in order to ensure the target change is reached beyond reasonable audible error, and this resolution would more than cover the needs for sub-semitone changes. Therefore, adding fine pitch control without key detection should be no more of a task than simply adding the necessary UI. Is somebody from Serato ever gonna come and trawl through this discussion? They really should, we've got some good stuff going here.

Quote: any software that shifts up or down even by a semitone minimum would have to have at least a certain resolution in order to ensure the target change is reached beyond reasonable audible error You're absolutely right, depending on how the stretching algorithm is implemented. I've seen ones that just use tables based on mfact = 12th root of 2 = 2^(1/12) = 1.0594631 But they aren't always great when doing transforms as equal temperment fudges the numbers a bit, so some notes end up sounding 'off'.

It's one of the problems with a percentage or linear control, as it doesn't truly represent the relationships between semitones in most scales. So shortcut methods can result in somewhat of a dissappointment. I'll be interested to check out Traktor again just to see how that pitch shifting works in practice.:).

Quote: Would serato be able to make this a possibility that's 1. Works better than audacity REAL-TIME with minimal CPU loss (audacity gets to take it's time going through the song slowly, but serato can't do that), and 2. Not cost a bugati to download? Well, as far as I'm aware Serato's Pitch 'n Time plugin is in real time. Waves' Pitch-shifter is in real time, being an effect insert you place on the channel you want. Having said that, it does introduce a certain noticeable latency so I suppose you might say it's not 'real real-time'. Waves' Pitch-Shifter does have a very high CPU usage.

It's quite old mind, don't think it's been updated in a while. I 100% guarantee you that Serato Pitch 'n Time and Waves Pitch-shifter sound >ridiculously. I find ableton's time stretching with warping set to complex pretty good too, but even there I agree with Davester about the consequences of reducing audio quality. If you shift up or down only a little bit and your audio is lossless flac, it's quite good, but more than +/-5% and it starts to get noticible I find. Ok for individual loops and so on, but I can hear exactly what he's talking about on vocal cuts, so I'd only use it to stretch the odd song here or there.

I will say however, that sometimes the introduced audio glitches have a really great tone that can totally 'make' a new remix.:). Quote: I appreciate your concern and the support you're showing with this message to us.

We understand that there is a huge demand for us to implement both of the features you have mentioned, and I assure you that the Serato team wants these features put into Serato DJ as well. We're working hard to give yourself and the users what you want, but all things take time and you will have to wait for us to announce the implementation of said features. Sit tight and please be patient until then.

Kind regards, Chez Panapa Customer Support 'Both' the features referred to this and Spotify integration. So I'd thought I'd just do a bit of quick research to highlight how behind Serato is with what appears to really be a basic feature these days: DJ software packages that have this feature. Traktor: Yes Traktor Mobile: Yes Abelton Live: Yes Magix Digital DJ 2: Yes Mixvibes CrossDJ: Yes Algoriddim DJay (both versions): Yes VirtualDJ Pro: Yes PCDJ: Yes VJ6: Yes Zulu DJ: Yes Image-Line Deck-a-Dance 2: Yes (through VST support) Party Mix DJ app for Android: Yes (I think?) Rekordbox DJ: no (?) Serato DJ: No. Now, I pulled those names from various 'top 10 DJ software' lists and searched the name followed by 'pitch-bend' or some similar phrase. In many lists, Serato was the ONLY software not to have this feature. Quote: I just find it interesting that Serato breaks for almost every OSX update and people always blame Serato.

Whereas the compatibility issues with the new Windows OS has been minimal to non existent. I feel like its more along the lines of Apple not concerning themselves with backwards compatibility. Incidentally serato has released a statement saying they don't expect any problems, but then the same 'just in case' stuff. Not entirely sure you can really blame apple for this either though. Imagine what percentage of OS X users are Serato users, something ridiculously tiny. It would be ridiculous for Apple to do each update with every single software developer's current software version in mind.

Apple don't know 3rd party developer's software, and even with their resources it'd be an impossible task for their engineers to learn the ins and outs of all of it, so all they can do is do what they do and then other people fix it to them. Although I suppose if this is the case then it is 'their fault', just I wouldn't blame them for it 🤔 In my own experience WINDOWS is the bad one, I've had much more software stop working on newer OS with them.

Perhaps the reason audio programs can have particular problems with Mac OS updates is that all things audio are natively more tightly integrated on OS X? Quote: I just find it interesting that Serato breaks for almost every OSX update and people always blame Serato. Whereas the compatibility issues with the new Windows OS has been minimal to non existent. I feel like its more along the lines of Apple not concerning themselves with backwards compatibility.

Incidentally serato has released a statement saying they don't expect any problems, but then the same 'just in case' stuff. Not entirely sure you can really blame apple for this either though. Imagine what percentage of OS X users are Serato users, something ridiculously tiny. It would be ridiculous for Apple to do each update with every single software developer's current software version in mind. Apple don't know 3rd party developer's software, and even with their resources it'd be an impossible task for their engineers to learn the ins and outs of all of it, so all they can do is do what they do and then other people fix it to them. Although I suppose if this is the case then it is 'their fault', just I wouldn't blame them for it 🤔 In my own experience WINDOWS is the bad one, I've had much more software stop working on newer OS with them.

Perhaps the reason audio programs can have particular problems with Mac OS updates is that all things audio are natively more tightly integrated on OS X? True Serato is a small percentage, but as stated above NI is having trouble along with a bunch of other audio oriented companies. Plus I've heard that El Capitan is breaking Microsoft Office Suites as far back as 2011 that were previously stable.

Obviously the moral is don't adopt early (I'm still on Win 8.1 for my DJ Rig) but it seems every year a significant number of issues pop up at least on the audio side of things for OSX. I have yet to hear of any significant compatibility issues with Win 10 but it's early yet. Something serious could still turn up.

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